Clean settings

[stompboxfreak1972]

Had another show tonight and was not getting the clean sounds I wanted. I had to play with the treble near off to avoid a real shrill, ice pick like sound. I have SB25s in my 2x12 cab but they are not " broke in" so to speak as I doubt that I have 30 hours on the cab yet. I think my issue may be a mix of things.

I am playing with my dirty channel at 9 oclock. To balance the clean sound I tried various things tonight but was not sure if playing with the clean channel volume down ( say 9 oclock ) and the gain up ( noon) was a better idea than playing with the gain at 9 oclock and the volume at noon.

What works best in your experience ?

[porkchops]

What tubes are you running? I currently have a Nitro with EH KT88's and have the same problem on the clean side. KT88's seem to cause that problem. I had Tung Sol EL34b's in another Nitro and the clean channel was just perfect. I try to switch to the middle or neck pickup when playing clean but some songs I don't have time to make the switch. Let me know if you figure out how to tame those highs. My old pro mod was the same way. I'm guessing you are running 88's.

[stompboxfreak1972]

Actually I am running Tungsol El34's.

[fastredponycar]

set the gain higher than the volume on teh clean channel. use lots of bass knob and then regulate trebel with the treble knob.

Works fine for me.

Anyways, the Heritage G12M's are bright speakers to begin with so if the SB25's are clones of them, then that would explain the extra brightness you hear.

to top it off, mesa cabs aren't exactly renowned for their warmth and smoothness. They're tight agressive cabs, all having a sort of high fidelity stiffness to them. I've played every mesa cab and they all exhibit this.

Companies like Bogner and splawn do something either with their materials, construction, wood joints, etc that give them more of a vintage voice regardless of what speaker is used. I heard it first hand today in one of our music stores playing an Uberschall through first the Ecstasy cab with V30's then side by side with a standard mesa 4X12 (stiletto I guess you would now label it) cab which also had V30's.

The mesa cab was much brighter, tighter and less bass, bogner cab had very full fat but not muddy midrange and the mesa had a more scooped midrange with fizzier highs than the bogner.

so the actual materials, build design and construction of the cab itself does play a very significant role in the overall tone no matter what speakers you use.

In my own personal preference and opinion, the mesa cabs just are not voiced for marshalls/splawns.

[Silverwulf]

The clean channel only has a few knobs. I'd think you could try just about every possible setting for it in about 5 minutes and see what works best for you, since it probably differs per person.

You said you weren't getting the clean sound you wanted and asked for suggestion, but you never said what kind of clean sound you DO want... So what type of clean are you looking for?

[stompboxfreak1972]

I guess to clarify..... the clean sound I am getting has this weird boxed in sound to it ( that makes no sense but I cannot describe it any better than that ). I am convinced it is my cab because I cannot dial out the issue. I am contemplating picking up a Splawn cab since I want a vertical 2x12 anyway.

The clean sounds on the Nitro are by no means bad. I think what I originally thought was user inexperience is actually not the case. Like you said..... it only has a few knobs so how hard can it be. Since I cannot dial out the sound I am assuming that I simply don't like the cab with the amp. It probably sounds fine and no one would notice but me.

[Silverwulf]

I don't necessarily think a different cab is going to make a dramatic difference if you plan on using the same speakers in it, especially another similar sized Baltic Birch cab. Chances are you're just not going to be fond of the clean sound. Like mentioned earlier, it only has a few knobs, so it's one of those "it is what it is" sort of things. It has it's sound, some will love it, others not so much. Just my take at least.

[stompboxfreak1972]

So let me get this straight ......I am either not smart enough to change the 4 knobs on the clean channel simply is not for me. Thank god..... I was beginning to believe I just did not like the cabinet !

[fastredponycar]

Nov 9, 2008 23:56:11 GMT -5 Silverwulf said:

I don't necessarily think a different cab is going to make a dramatic difference if you plan on using the same speakers in it, especially another similar sized Baltic Birch cab. Chances are you're just not going to be fond of the clean sound. Like mentioned earlier, it only has a few knobs, so it's one of those "it is what it is" sort of things. It has it's sound, some will love it, others not so much. Just my take at least.

This post couldn't be further from the truth.

When I was shopping for a 2X12 a couple of years ago, I used the same 2 speakers (actually carried them with me when testing cabs) and the difference in cabinet construction makes an enormous difference even if the two LOOK the same and are constructed similarly.

Think the avatar oversized vintage 2X12 sounds as good as the bogner oversized 2X12? Think the avatar contemporary cabs sound as good as the orange cabs?

Different grade birch ply, different joint types, different joint materials used, internal bracing, internal air volume, heck even the tolex used will make a difference.

Part of a cab's voice regardless of speaker is how the wood moves with the sound waves and resonates. How the sound waves resonate with the wood can alter the sound of 2 identically constructed cabs if one is made of pieces of wood with different resonating frequencies. I know it sounds like mumbo jumbo but high end cab and guitar builders actually do tap testing on wood to determine how it resonates and will build cabs from specificially chosen pieces of wood.

Mesa and marshall don't do this.

Mesa cabs are very stiff and boxy sounding. They're voiced specifically to compliment the tight punchy sound of the rectifiers and stilettos, not to give a spacious bloom to the notes as that would defeat the purpose of those amp voices.

the diezel cabs are the same way. To say they are bad cabinets simply because they're not as 3 dimensional and fat and organic sounding as a splawn or bogner ecstasy cab would be misconstruing their purpose. The diezel amps are built to be very tight, clean, dry and punchy amps and to voice a cab similarly where the wood delivers a stiffer tighter attack and more high end emphasis would be a design to strive for and that's what they've accomplished.

Playing an bogner "ecstacy" (4 V30's) cab and a Diezel cab with 4 V30's side by side using the same amp and hearing polar opposite tones makes it blatantly obvious how drastic the cabinet construction can alter the overall tone.

The splawns are by nature, classic voiced amps. They have that whole vintage heavy rock pedigree going on that (in my opinion) works best with a cabinet voiced to cater to the vintage tone more than a modern tone. It doesn't mean the sound will be weak, loose and flabby (because when you plug a splawn into it, this is impossible) it simply means that the fat rich midrange, glassy high end and big full low end that the amp's voice, by design, delivers will be complimented by a cabinet that shares the same vocal similarities.

When we were in the studio the week before last, we had a cab room.



And every cab in there had different speakers in it. One orange cab had V30's and the other had G12H30's. One marshall cab had G12T75's and the other had green backs, the hiwatt had fanes.

The engineer and producer we were recording with automatically went to the cab with V30's and G12T75's saying they were the best cabs for me and I stopped them and said no I want the marshall with greenbacks and the H30's.

These two more vintage voiced cabs combined with low wattage speakers sounded SOO much better in the control room than the V30's, 75's or fanes sounded. And this is for heavy modern rock music too.


anyways, I've strayed fairly far from the original poster's dilemma.

By their nature, an open back or semi open back cab will have more of a room filling "3D" sound. In my honest opinion, if you don't mind sacrificing a little low end tightness, the semi open back oversized 2X12 that splawn makes would probably be the best for the money.

The only other one I would suggest would be the port city oversized 2X12 if you're playing big detuned metal but if not, their standard 2X12.

www.guitarlab.org/pcamps.htm

You can find them used for under $500 and In all honesty, I think the port city cab would sound bigger and better than the splawn 2X12 so that would be my first choice.

[stompboxfreak1972]

Thanks for the great post Fastredponycar. I am googling Port city sound clips as I type this......

[porkchops]

Blah, blah, blah. Get a Splawn oversized 2x12 loaded with Big Blocks and be done with it. They will round those highs off a bit and give you a big 4x12ish sound.

[LooseCannon]

This is what your clean channel should sound like, more or less:

splawnguitars.com/splawncleanzack.mp3

[stompboxfreak1972]

Thanks loosecannon. Is that straight in the amp or do you have on OD pedal going on ?

[Silverwulf]

Nov 10, 2008 7:29:22 GMT -5 stompboxfreak1972 said:

So let me get this straight ......I am either not smart enough to change the 4 knobs on the clean channel simply is not for me. Thank god..... I was beginning to believe I just did not like the cabinet !

Well, the point of your entire post - even titled "Clean Settings" - was asking what settings everyone used for best results on their clean channel. I was just saying that in the same time it took you post asking for the settings of 3-4 knobs, you could have probably tried every combo of those knobs and found what worked best for you because what's "shrill" to you might be "bright and awesome" to the next guy. Don't be afraid to experiment.

[Silverwulf]

Nov 10, 2008 8:31:29 GMT -5 fastredponycar said:

This post couldn't be further from the truth.

When I was shopping for a 2X12 a couple of years ago, I used the same 2 speakers (actually carried them with me when testing cabs) and the difference in cabinet construction makes an enormous difference even if the two LOOK the same and are constructed similarly.

Considering subjective matter is neither right nor wrong, no...it's not far from the truth at all. He already stated that there's nothing wrong with the cleans and no one but him would even likely know the difference. So to me, if someone has that opinion from the outset, then no...cab isn't going to make a substantial difference to the person, especially if the same speakers are involved.

Nov 10, 2008 8:31:29 GMT -5 fastredponycar said:

Think the avatar oversized vintage 2X12 sounds as good as the bogner oversized 2X12? Think the avatar contemporary cabs sound as good as the orange cabs?

Different grade birch ply, different joint types, different joint materials used, internal bracing, internal air volume, heck even the tolex used will make a difference.

Technically different? Sure. An audible difference to 99% of people listening? Likely no. You can mic up a SB 25 loaded, decent 2X12 made by 10 different amp companies and record some clips, and in the end, virtually no one would be able to tell you which was which or the difference would be so minimal no one would care.

Nov 10, 2008 8:31:29 GMT -5 fastredponycar said:

Part of a cab's voice regardless of speaker is how the wood moves with the sound waves and resonates. How the sound waves resonate with the wood can alter the sound of 2 identically constructed cabs if one is made of pieces of wood with different resonating frequencies. I know it sounds like mumbo jumbo but high end cab and guitar builders actually do tap testing on wood to determine how it resonates and will build cabs from specificially chosen pieces of wood.

Mesa and marshall don't do this.

Mesa cabs are very stiff and boxy sounding. They're voiced specifically to compliment the tight punchy sound of the rectifiers and stilettos, not to give a spacious bloom to the notes as that would defeat the purpose of those amp voices.

The Stiletto cab today is the exact same cab as the original Recto Traditional, so it never had a cab specifically made for it. It was simply renamed. The Recto and Stiletto are drastically different voiced amps that serve two different tonal niches.

Nov 10, 2008 8:31:29 GMT -5 fastredponycar said:

the diezel cabs are the same way. To say they are bad cabinets simply because they're not as 3 dimensional and fat and organic sounding as a splawn or bogner ecstasy cab would be misconstruing their purpose. The diezel amps are built to be very tight, clean, dry and punchy amps and to voice a cab similarly where the wood delivers a stiffer tighter attack and more high end emphasis would be a design to strive for and that's what they've accomplished.

Playing an bogner "ecstacy" (4 V30's) cab and a Diezel cab with 4 V30's side by side using the same amp and hearing polar opposite tones makes it blatantly obvious how drastic the cabinet construction can alter the overall tone.

Minimal difference, of what little difference there is a very slight knob tweak would make inaudible, especially when a mic is tossed in front. And I would hardly call a Splawn or Bogner cab more organic sounding.

The point I'm making is that people tend to spend a lot of time, effort, and money on things that will have minimal results compared to what they're looking for. To me, it's like the guys that spend $450 on a rackmount noise suppressor to get the same effect other guys get form $50 pedal because they've convinced themselves that it really makes THAT big of a difference...