Nitro VS. JCM 800 2203??

[biglitvak]

Hi LC,
For Fender speakers I've tried many combinations and my conclusion is that Tweed Fenders sound best with vintage Jensen alnicos and BF Fenders sound best with vintage Jensen ceramics. I don't like the Oxford ceramics that came stock in may BF amps. Weber VSTs are better than vintage Oxfords. I also play my Bandmaster clean through 1x12 greenback closed-back cabinet for Jazz. I know that sounds weird, but Celestion closed-back cabinets sound great played clean. I play my distortion heads (Nitro, JMP, JCM, Elmwood) through a Divided by 13 compact "club" bottom (2x12 greenbacks), and keep an eye on the volume. I plan to buy another 2x12 (Splawn) cabinet and put G12H Heritage speakers in it. I do use the Vibrolux's reverb depending on loudness. I like the sound of the reverb at good volume, but at lower volume it sounds too "springy" to me (ok for surf music) and I use my weirdo Intellifex rig. In general - the more distortion I have, the less reverb I use (until it's off), but for clean stuff, if the room is flat, I dig a reverb. Some of the botique heads have reverbs that sound nice to me (e.g. BadCat, Fuchs). Thanks for the recommendation on the Holy Grail ECSong, and the Verbzilla and RoomMate LC. Looks like I've got some fun homework to do. It's a pain using a studio reverb (correctly) without an effects loop. I don't know how many reverb pedals I've bought and sold trying to simplify my rig, but I haven't tried any of the three mentioned.

[ecsong187]

Definately give the Holy Grail a listen, very good and cheap.

[LooseCannon]

Hi biglitvak,
What is it about the ceramics that you like better than the alnicos with Blackface amps?

ecsong thanks for the vid and recommendation. It's kinda hard to judge the quality of reverb\delay from vids, I guess i'll have to try a few myself.
Here's a few more reverb pedals we should check out:

Digitech Hardwire RV

Wampler

Boss FRV-1

Boss RV-5

Mr Springgy

[DonaldDemon]

Malekko Spring Chicken - that's the reverb pedal I use. I love spring reverb sounds (wouldn't buy a Fender w/o it!) I like the Malekko verb pedal than the actual accutronics tank in my Rivera. It's that good!

[DonaldDemon]

btw, I have played an old 68 Vibrolux and fell in love with it! Beautiful sounding amp!

[biglitvak]

Hi LC,
Hmmm, why do I like ceramics with BF Fenders, and alnicos with Tweed Fenders (and Ceramics with Splawn/Marshall)? You're really making me think about stuff I did without much thought. I spent years experimenting with different combinations, and my opions are strictly a result of what my ear told me. I could have an ear problem that makes my opinions useless. Anyway, I'll give you my (amatuer) therory. I think that ceramics can produce more frequencies than an alnico. They sound "Fatter" to me when playing clean. Alnicos sound "Thinner" to me when not distoring. But when you add distortion, Alnicos may have more "presence" meaning that I can hear distinct notes better. Distortion is pretty complicated -there are a lot of frequencies that combine to make distortion. Because distortion is complicated you can't hear every individual note as easily as when playing clean. Alnicos can simplify complex distortion by not reproducing every frequency, so it sounds "clearer." That to me is "presence." BlackFace amps are "cleaner" than tweed amps, so to hear all their frequencies you're better off with a ceramic. The Chicago blues sound is not a full on distortion, so it sounds "fatter" with ceramics. The tweed sound is naturally more distorted so it has better "presence" with alnicos. Splawns and Marshalls are weird because according to my theory, they would sound better with alnicos - but they don't! Not many Marshall/Splawn artists use alnicos. I think that's a matter of power. Although a Marshall/Splawn is typically played with distortion - it's a very "controlled" distortion where the overtones are added without loosing the "presence" of each note. Therefore Marshalls and Splawns sound "thinner" to me with alnicos (and better with ceramics).
BTW - thanks Donald for more reverb pedal hints. I've been surfing the web listening to samples of reverb pedals. One that I thought sounded cool was the Dr. Scientist Radical Red Reverberator. Anyone out there used one (opinions)? In general, many of the samples (Grail, Chicken, Verbzilla) sound better than the pedals available 10 years ago.

[LooseCannon]

DD, thanks for the Malekko suggestion, i'll check out that on. Did you try it in front of your Rivera or in the effects loop? I'm worried a reverb pedal won't sound as good in front of the amp even though it's a clean sounding amp.

Biglitvak, i've always imagined alnicos to be smoother, and ceramics to be punchier, edgier and more piercing- like with pickups.

Check out the sound clips:
www.jensentone.com/c10q.php
www.jensentone.com/p10q.php

Listening to the clean sound samples it sounds like the Ceramics have more headroom and are more clear sounding, but are also edgier and less smooth than the Alnicos, which are sweeter and warmer but not as tight in the bass and are pretty mushy in the lower frequencies.

[biglitvak]

Hi LC,
Thanks for the links to the samples. I guess it's a human ear thing because to me the samples validate my theory. The alnicos sound "Thinner" on clean to me than the ceramics. On distortion, I can hear each note better on the alnicos. If you look at the frequency response graphs of each speaker, the ceramics have better frequency response across the board. Anyway there's no substitute for simply buying some of each and experimenting. Speakers arent that expensive compared to amps, and you can swap them in and out without devaluating the amp (as long as you keep the originals if the amp came with them). Over the years I've gravitated to heads simply because I can mix and match speaker bottoms with them easily. Nonetheless I'd never part with my Vibrolux Reverb or my Tweed Super - because they've got "mojo." Believe me, with vintage gear, spending a little more now for what you really want can pay off in the long run. I once paid $700 for a BF Princeton Reverb that was 100% original instead of the going rate of $500 for one that was nice but didn't have date-matched speakers or wasn't mint. Ten years later I sold it to a Japanese collector for $2400, when the going rate for one that wasn't 100% original was about a grand. Good luck in your search for tone (and thanks again for making me plug my Bandmaster into 2x10).

[LooseCannon]

Hi biglitvak,
I listened to the clips again and I understand why you hear the alnicos as being thinner on clean, they sound like they have less output, headroom and punch and don't sound as "big" as the ceramics, however they are smoother and don't have the edge of the ceramics, but the ceramics seem like a better choice overall.
I'm not even gonna bother to compare the overdrived clips cause those sucked

[LooseCannon]

I bought the 66' Bandmaster, it's in nearly mint condition and sounds great.
However, I went over to a friend's house who has a Bandmaster Reverb TFL5005 that was converted to Blackface specs, we compared the two and my BF Bandmaster sounded edgier, the the Bandmaster Reverb was a lot smoother and rounder just like a Vibrolux.
We've tried changing tubes around and it didn't make a huge difference, I asked him about the technical differences between the amps and he said the Bandmaster Reverb has a tube rectifier and the BF Bandmaster has a SS rectifier, since I have another friend who has a Vibrolux Reverb that had an SS rectifier installed and the sound is still smooth and round I didn't think the rectifier is the problem.
So I asked him about the reverb in the circuit and its effect on the sound, and he said that since the reverb lowers some voltages in the circuit it does make the sound mellower, so I tried plugging into the Bandmaster Reverb's normal channel and it indeed was harsher unlike the vibrato channel.
Since I don't want to ruin this amp's originality by adding spring reverb to it I'm probably gonna have to sell it and buy only a Fender with reverb since now I know how important it is to the sound, even if you don't use the reverb!

biglitvak is this what you've heard in your BF Bandmaster and Vibrolux Reverb\Bandmaster Reverb as well?
I agree that the BF Bandmaster is tighter and punchy, but to me that's better for more of a rock tone, i'm looking for a smooth jazz tone.

[biglitvak]

Hi LC, DO NOT SELL YOUR NEW Bandmaster (yet). OK, you are comparing a Vibrolux Reverb, BF Bandmaster, and TFL5005. Oddly (extremely oddly) I own all three. I once owned about 40 vintage Fender amps and I have only 5 left as I try to downsize for retirement. These three are among my "finalists" when it comes to best sounding Fender Vintage amps. I've had amps that are much more "famous" like Tweed Deluxe and BF Deluxe Reverb, which I've sold. I don't know electronics like your friend, but I have a lot of years of listening experience. You can pick up a TFL 50005 for a song because they are incredibly underrrated (I never converted mine to BF). You can still buy a BF Vibrolux for under 2k (http://losangeles.craigslist.org/lac/msg/1723380993.html), which is less than most botiques (except Splawn and Dr. Z - thank you Scott - you're a saint). Keep your BF Bandmaster and A/B it with other stuff. The BF Bandmaster head has a very unique sound that is very cool for Jazz. True the TFL is cleaner and bassier, albeit "jazzier" but the BF Head kills when you want a little more presence. Try it with different bottoms. Good Luck!

[LooseCannon]

Thanks biglitvak, any idea why isn't my BF as smooth as the Bandmaster Reverb\Vibrolux Reverb?
I really need that smoothness.

[bubbastain]

I keep coming back to this thread thinking it will be about a Nitro VS JCM 800

[splatter]

Mar 29, 2010 12:39:40 GMT -5 ecsong187 said:

I am a big modern metal kind of guy. Dig the tones of Killswitch Engage, Lamb of God, etc.
I've heard some killer tones from the Nitro.
So my question is, what are the big diff. between the Nitro and a stock original 1984 JCM 800??
I like my 800, but it doesn't have enough gain. So I'm contemplating modding the 800, or just selling it/trading it for a Nitro??
I tried to search for this but couldn't find anything. If their is already a thread like this please post the link.
Thanks
Edwin

Are you going to do the mod or are you thinking of having it done? I have a 2203 reissue that I'm modding now .sounds pretty sweet but still needs a little tweeking . I'm still debating on adding another gain stage .
Btw what pedal do you use with the JCM to get a good distorted tone.

[LooseCannon]

May 7, 2010 0:15:13 GMT -5 bubbastain said:

I keep coming back to this thread thinking it will be about a Nitro VS JCM 800

NEVER!!